Look how old this is! I post at SearchCommander.com now, and this post was published 16 years 2 months 1 day ago. This industry changes FAST, so blindly following the advice here *may not* be a good idea! If you're at all unsure, feel free to hit me up on Twitter and ask.
Does your business send e-mail to your customers? How about emailing invoices or monthly statements?
Do you ever communicate with them to let them know about issues with their orders, or changes to their account?
Do you ever send them a newsletter, even one that they may have double-verified with an “opt in” on your end?
If you do, then you should be aware that there is a movement afoot to stop delivery of ANY commercial e-mail, unless the end user specifically says that they want to receive it by “whitelisting” you in THEIR control panel.
The company is Linux Magic, operated by Wizard Tower Technoservices, and a few ISP’s have made the the unfortunate decision to use them in their efforts to prevent spam from arriving in user mailboxes.
In theory this may be fine, but I believe that most end-users just are not yet savvy enough to understand how to do this, and your e-mail to them, from newsletters, to invoices, and even replies to email they sent or CC’d you in the first place will go undelivered, if this company has their way.
They operate several other anti-spam technology sites, including mipspace.com, magicmail.linuxmagic.com, magicspam.com, cityemail.ca, spamrats.com and there are likely others as well, since they’re growing.
There aren’t that many complaints about them out there, in my opinion, because they’re not all that big yet. But there are a growing number of ticked off people, and I predict that number will continue to grow as long as they retain their current definition of what mail should be blocked.
I dislike unsolicited e-mail as much as the next guy, and I’m happy that drastic steps are being taken all over the web to prevent people from becoming buried in unwanted e-mail.
However, this blocking of users mail threatens the very nature of e-mail communication, without the knowledge of the end user – i.e. the customers of the ISP’s that hire these email fascists.
Oh sure, the “knowledge” is buried in some online document or user agreement, but remember, we’re dealing with end users here. Can they really be expected to whitelist everyone they send mail to manually?
A brief education
Most Internet service providers and Web hosts subscribe to what are called “blacklists“, and when spam gets identified or reported, various IP addresses of the offending mail servers get added to these lists.
When that happens, end users of the subscribing ISP’s will not able to receive mail from any business or contact that may be using one of those blacklisted mail servers.
This “blacklisting” generally results in a bounced email message being sent back to the sender, with a message explaining why the mail was not delivered, and with links to follow to the blacklist removal process, in the event their IT department can fix something on their end.
Once that takes place, and a mail server IP has been added to a spam blacklist, there is always a remedy for removing them from the list in a timely fashion, assuming that you’re not really a spammer.
Apparently using “known spammer blacklists” don’t seem to be enough for some ISPs, and they are turning to other companies to help minimize their users unwanted e-mail, like Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd., and they have their own set of rules, that ISPs should be very wary of.
Specific History
This story begins with a bounced e-mail message that I sent to a client, where I CC’d about 4 people, including his newly hired design firm. The message to the design firm bounced back to me with this error:
<HYPERLINK “mailto:[email protected]”[email protected]>:
12.345.678.9 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550-Your message was rejected by this user and was not delivered.
550-Reason: This system uses BMS to check your IP address reputation, and
was rejected by the user 550-Protection provided by: MagicMail version
1.1.1 (http://magicmail.linuxmagic.com) 550
For more information, please visit the URL:
550- http://www.linuxmagic.com/power_of_ip_reputation.html 550 or contact your ISP or mail server operator. Giving up on 12.345.678.9
Having never heard of “BMS” and knowing that our IP addresses are totally clean and not on any spam blacklists, I attempted to visit the URL they provided, and got a 404 error page not found. Frustrated, I looked up the company contact info at their site and sent them an e-mail –
Dear Linux Magic,
I presume you were hired by the web host or domain owner of REMOVEDDOMAIN.com, and I’m unable to communicate with my client’s key web developer on a joint project –
My sending IP at office is 76.115.19.29 and my outgoing mail server is mail2.pdxtc.com (208.70.160.20)
Visiting your link “for more information” is bad, and my mail server IP is clean here – http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
Whatever the problem is, we need to resolve please.
Scott Hendison
Three full days later, this is the reply I get –
Hello,
Could you please forward this information off to the network administrators at the location where the email is being sent? They should be able to assist
you with any issues you are having sending to their mail server.
Thank you.
— Spam Auditor —
That was it!
- There was no mention of why we might be blocked
- No mention of the fact that their link “for more information” is bad
- No explanation whatsoever as to who they are
- No information about how to fill out a removal request, where they might be located, or what it is that they even do.
At this point I simply forwarded their e-mail reply to my client, asked him to forward it to his developer, and thought no more of it, because I knew that we were clean on the spam blacklists, and the fact was, this was really their problem, not mine. leFor some reason his Internet service provider would not allow him to get my e-mail.
A few days later one of our web hosting customers started getting identical bounce messages from one of his vendors and he submitted a support ticket to us.
Now, since it was no longer affecting just me, our server administrator attempted to pursue the problem again. He was more patient than I was, and actually dug in their website to the point of finding a form to submit in an attempt to get our mail servers off their “bad list”.
Two days later, when he finally did receive their response declining his request for removal, he had to phone them, and he claims he was told the following information over the phone:
“We will not remove your IP , because you are allowing commercial marketing e-mails to be sent. We define a ‘commercial marketing company’ as any company who sends out bulk emails whether solicited or unsolicited. This would include companies sending out a monthly newsletter or even a billing statement notification to existing clients.”
My admin then answered our hosting clients support ticket, saying there is nothing we can do to get this IP removed from their database and they have declined the removal.
At this point I decided to phone them because we are not spammers, we don’t allow unsolicited email, and we are not on any of the “real” spam company blacklists.
I phoned Wizard Tower Technoservices the first thing in the morning, and was told by someone named Sean that I would get a phone call as soon as manager arrived.
Four and a half hours later I phoned back, speaking to Ryan this time, who attempted to help me, but ultimately said I would have to talk to Michael, and he would have him call me right away as soon as he was back.
A couple of hours later, just before 5pm, I phoned back and was lucky enough to have Michael answer the phone, where I attempted to pitch my case.
Michael held the company line that “We do not discuss this over the phone please fill out our form”, while he attempted to educate me on the fact that they were not really a “spam blocking service”, and that being on their list was not necessarily saying we were spammers, just that we had frequently allowed commercial marketing to take place. He claimed that “people have a right to not accept commercial email” and we were “allowing it”.
I tried to challenge this supposed fact by pointing out that no, we do not allow our users to send unsolicited e-mail, and that any user that did so was immediately removed from our hosting platform. In other words, we have a zero tolerance for spammers, and we do not allow it.
At that point our conversation grew heated, with him insisting that we were “commercial marketers”, yet offering no proof or citing any complaints, and then he went back to his standard line of “fill out the form” on our site and they’ll take a look.
I filled out the form –
This is a second removal request, being made after speaking with Sean this morning, with Ryan mid-day, and finally with Michael Peddemors, after phoning just now.
“LinuxMagic DOES NOT IN ANY WAY choose which addresses should be blacklisted or not” so I’m asking you again, why we’re on this list? I’m submitting again because Michael said that this was the only way to investigate.
My server admin tells me that the first removal request was declined. These IP addresses – 208.70.160.19, 208,70.160.20 and 208.70.160.40 (and likely others in our range) are on your blocking list.
My admin claims that you told him that we were “allowing e-mail marketing” from our servers, and not necessarily that we were spammers. He says you told him “email marketing’ technically could include activities such as regular monthly billing and opt in newsletters or subscriptions.
We are a web hosting company with hundreds of customers. We do not allow bulk e-mail to be sent, and any hosting customers that does partake in such activities are in violation of our terms of service, and quickly become ex-customers.
Yes I understand that you’re “not a spam blacklist”, and that you are only maintaining a list of IP addresses that allow e-mail marketing but I need clarification please.
Is it really true that monthly billing statements qualify as e-mail marketing?
If that’s the case, then I guess we might be “guilty” as charged, but I would like to know exactly on what grounds we were added to your poor IP reputation list.
Thank you for a prompt response,
Scott Hendison
Still, nothing happened, and I got no response from them.
Over a week went by before I got another bounce, so I filled out the form again. – Now keep in mind this is the third time we filled out the form, and we’ve had multiple phone calls with them trying to convince them that we’re not spammers.
If you’re going to block a company, I believe you owe it to them to tell them why, and respond to requests like this in a timely manner.
I’m writing yet AGAIN, requesting information on WHY our IP addresses [123.456.789.0 ] and likely others in our range are on your blocking list.
I’m also looking for verification of what my admin claims that you told him.
1. We were “allowing e-mail marketing” from our servers, and not necessarily that we were spammers.
2. He says you told him “email marketing’ technically could include activities such as regular monthly billing and opt in newsletters or subscriptions.
I’ve phoned three separate times, finally speaking to Michael Peddemors nearly two weeks ago, who told me to submit the form, which I’ve done.
Your information claims that “LinuxMagic DOES NOT IN ANY WAY choose which addresses should be blacklisted or not” so I’m asking you again, why we’re on this list? What legitimate blacklist has provided our IP addresses?
The world’s largest reference list here shows none –
http://www.mxtoolbox.com/blacklists.aspx
Please give me the professional courtesy of a response this time.
Scott Hendison
Within 12 hours, here’s the response I got back –
Scott, as previously commented on. MIPSPACE is an IP reputation service that can be used by email administrators and end users to control email delivery.
It can be used to block, score, filter or otherwise affect mail delivery based by various technologies, including some LinuxMagic technologies.
Email marketing reputation is based on historical patterns of email marketing.
It does not make any distinction on the type of email marketing, except that occasionally double opt-in lists may receive exemptions.
MipSpace does occasionally review it’s rating based on end users reports. We do not normally change our reputation rating based on senders complaints.
Our ratings are no different than movie ratings, and not everyone may agree with our assessments, however that does not preclude us from making the assessment.
Those that choose to use MipSpace reputation lists are aware of this, and we have had very few complaints from those using the service.
Although we do realize this may affect your ability to send email to certain individuals if they use this rating system, the rights of the owners of the mailboxes takes precedence.
So yes, this has nothing to do with traditional forms of ‘spamming’. It is for people who prefer not to get any email marketing, no matter in what form.
Those that use this service usually have the ability to ‘whitelist’ any specific emails they wish to get, so if there is something they really want, they know they can do that.
And yes, we do not have the ability to verify the opt-in policies of companies, (just as you may have difficulties verifying the opt-in policies of your customers sending through your services), so occasionally opt-in email marketing companies will also get included, especially when those companies email marketing is objected to by the individuals who end up receiving the emails.
Often, the philosophy of opt-in may differ from the email marketer and the recipient; so called opt-in has reached such levels that more and more people are choosing methods such as blocking companies with a reputation of historically sending email marketing, and then whitelisting any addresses from those locations that they specifically want to receive email from.
Until such a time as these people complain that it is stopping a company that never sends email marketing, or it requires an excessive amount of exemptions, we have no motivation to change our rating.
If you have a case of a single IP in your range belonging to different customers with different policies on email marketing, you can consider IP address delegation via whois, and then we can base our reputation on those person’s activities separately, as operators of their own IP address space.
And as to your other references regarding LinuxMagic, the quote is correct.
ISP’s and end users choose the behavior of how the MIPSPACE rankings are used. LinuxMagic does make the list available in the product free of charge for those people to use.
This will be our final correspondence on this issue. As mentioned, herein, and on the website. We do NOT respond to removal requests from email senders, and there is no evidence to indicate this rating was accidental.
And this response goes far above and beyond our responsibilities in this matter, especially given the history of several abusive phone calls to our offices and staff.
However, if you decide at some future point to only permit email marketing from certain IP ranges, and other ranges are designated differently we may consider rating each IP address range separately, but again this will usually be instigated by customers who are the receivers, and not the senders.
— MipSpace Review Officer —
*****
Oh I see, so now I’m abusive because I was told someone would call me back immediately, and they blew me off? I’m abusive because I had to call back two more times before I could talk to someone (Michael) who was a pompous jackass on the phone and refused to help me unless I filled out the form yet again?
Does their final response above site any actual complaints? No.
Does it tell me how we got on that list in the first place? No.
It simply says that we are on the list, they’re not going to remove us, and they verified that yes, even e-mail billing invoices and double opt in newsletter subscriptions count against us, and we are on their “bad list”.
Their “service” is not a spam blacklist, it’s just a list of domains that in their determination, for which they do not share the methodology, are “known to allow commercial e-mail solicitation”, and that does include sending out company invoices or newsletters that their customers have subscribed to.
Their amazing technology isn’t even smart enough to automatically whitelist addresses to whom their clients send or CC email directly! If the white list were updated when the end user sends or CC’s mail to a domain, then there might be SOME hope here, but there’s not.
I’m strongly urging any Internet service provider to consider carefully the ramifications of using Linux Magic, or any Wizard Tower Technoservices company to filter their users mail.
I’m also strongly urging anyone with expected email mysteriously not arriving to ask their ISP if they use this company, and if they do… then dump ’em.
Perhaps their technology is excellent, I’m not really sure, and I don’t really care. The point is, that they are uncooperative jerks, and the fact that they offer no remedy at all for businesses who feel unfairly blocked, nor do they tell them why we’re blocked in the first place, is completely unacceptable.
Since they seem to be completely unregulated by any state, federal or other agency, they are free to wreak all the havoc they wish by indiscriminately blocking mail however they want, and I suspect that some of the ISP’s that are actually using them don’t even realize it.
In short, any ISP using them may have a lot of angry users on their hands…
Be warned.
P.S. – I’m sorry that I seem to have this much free time to write stuff like this. I don’t really, but this “email fascism” is BEYOND ridiculous and that’s why I was angry enough to write this… manifesto.
P.P.S. – I seldom specifically ask in posts for Diggs, Stumbles, or any social networking sharing, but I’m asking now…
Wow Scott, they got you really fired up! And with good reason. Its amazing to me that a science that is so based on logic (computer science) could have so many people involved in it that don’t use very much logic. Anyway, as soon as someone doesn’t get paid because their invoice doesn’t get through…well I smell a lawsuit.
Scott,
I have also had problems with LinuxMagic and MIP Space. They consider an invoice SPAM. This is just ridiculous.
I doubt they will make it in business much longer.
I am just a normal ordinary person, a homemaker, and I use a spam blocker email service. I don’t know if I am allowed to mention their name, but I use them because I don’t like spam. Anyway, every time I try to reply to any of my brother’s emails to me, I get a mail delivery failure notification, just like the one shown above. My brother was not even aware that his ISP uses Linux Magic, and he was not aware that I was not able to send him email from my account that uses a spam blocker service. I have no problem sending him email from my hotmail account, so I knew something was wrong. I contacted my email service and they told me there was nothing they could do, and that Magic Mail probably was blocking my email for competitive reasons. I think this is totally ridiculous. I simply want to send my brother email, and it is blocked every time. I have no idea what to do about it. Any suggestions?
Signed-Frustrated-
Unfortunately Mary, there’s nothing you can do about it – that’s up to your brother, to deal with his ISP to “whitelist” you – even though you’ve done nothing wrong.
As long as people like your brother don’t complain to their ISP’s about the terrible policies and service Linux Magic provide, I’m afraid they’ll continue to grow.
In my case, there was nothing I could do either, and the condescending attitude of Linux Magics owner told me as much – and that’s why I vented in this blog post.
Hopefully some CEO at some ISP will read this before subjecting their unwitting subscribers to this company.
I am now dealing with the same problem. I have a shared hosting account – so my IP address, mail host, etc. are used by others over whom I have no control. My hosting service has just received my support ticket. Based on this, it looks like I shouldn’t hold my breath.
If it’s related to Linux Magic, then no, don’t hold your breath. Sorry, but it’s not their fault.
To get mail to that company you’re having trouble with, they’d have to manually whitelist you at their server, or wit hthe help of their ISP, or else you’ll have to change web hosts or send to them through Gmail, Hotmail etc.
To be able to communicate with other victims of Wizard Tower, I’ve had to set up a free email account at a free email provider, set it to auto-forward to the client, and I changed that to their contact info in my Outlook.
Even changing hosts is guarantee, because you never know who Linux Magic will arbitrarily block next.
Please refer your webhoste to this post – I’d love to get their input, and know how many of their customers have been affected, see if they have any more ideas etc.
It’s time to start calling out the ISP’s that are using Linux Magic, because that’s what’s causing this problem…
If Linux Magic simply had no customers left, then you, and me, and your web host, and lots of others wouldn’t have these problems.
Anyway, every time I try to reply to any of my brother’s emails to me, I get a mail delivery failure notification, just like the one shown above
Scott,
I’ve been having the same problem with these Neo-Nazis, since early Oct. Same experience in not getting timely responses, and when I do get a response, it’s all double talk.
I’m filling a complaint witht the FBI’s Internet Crime Center this morning. Have you tried that? If so, did you get any response?
Thanks for the candor Don, but I don’t know that there’s really a “crime” here. Please tell me what the FBI says though!
It’s a SHAME, but not a crime, to inconvenience people like this.
It’s a SHAME, but not a crime, that Linux Magic has decided to “declare” that legitimate business email is somehow “unworthy” to make it though their filtering system.
It’s a SHAME, but likely not a crime, that unsuspecting ISP’s are falling for this terrible system, unless they are being lied yto in the sales process.
Maybe the ISP’s don’t even realize what Linux Magic does, and when they complain to owner Michael Peddemors, they’re shown the same condescending attitude and told to “read their contract”?
The venom people feel for this company is growing now, but we’ve lost only 2 hosting customers over it, so not huge.. yet.
I’d love to see input from an ISP here that either uses them, or has dumped them, and can tell us why.
You will NEVER know how many customers you might have lost. Find some friends more in the “effective use of force” mindset that you are. Several areas of creativity would be useful.
You can itch & moan, or you can bring it on. Be serious or give it up.
b-
Sometimes I’m not sure whether a comment is legitimate or not, and this is one of those times. I’m not clear on how this post might cost me customers, but I would welcome an explanation…
Scott,
Same problem with these unsavory people.
If there is a class action law suit against them that you are aware of, please let us know.
We would be delighted to join the class – and put these people exactly where they belong.
Scott,
I finally got off BMS list but it was a long and hard fight. My dedicate host is at HiVelocity. BMS blocked their entire /22 (or maybe /23, can’t remember) network! Thousands of IP addresses. HiVelocity had a very cavalier attitude toward the issue. But after weeks of aruguing with them and threatening to go elsewhere, the fixed the problem by listing me as the owner of my IP in rwhois. That was enough for BMS to delist me, after a few days.
But this week, I’ve had more serious problems with HiVelocity. In the process, I noticed the rest of their network is STILL blocked by BMS. They obviously don’t care, or aren’t getting enough complaints.
It would be nice if a company with thousands of blocked IP address were to get on BMS. But, alas, it won’t be HiVelocity.
I’m probably going to move my dedicated server to another provider because of the problems and lack of support with Hi Velocity. Does anyone reading this know of (1) a reputable, reliable company that provides dedicated hosting services and (2) is there a forum/blog/web dedicated to rating companies that host servers?
Regards,
Don
Scott,
I have a VPS through Pro VPS I have been using for about a year and a half. My local ISP uses Mipspace and either does not know how to remove the block or will not. They have unblocked some individual address, but that is a nightmare. This is a real pain. I called Pro VPS wyo said they will talk to Mipspace. Good Luck! They did not like the idea of changing the whois info for a small block of 3 ips.
I agree Mipspace seems to have put a lot of us in an impossible situation and will do nothing to help. I have called my ISP quite a few times and seldom get a response.
frustrating to say the least. I will post the outcome.
Yep Brad, I agree that it’s pretty amazing that there’s not more of a backlash against Wizard Tower and Linux Magic. I could start a pretty good spam prevention service too if I could indiscriminately block whomever i wished!
I have been having the same problem with my 77 year old mother’s ISP (LISCO) who uses Linux Magic for e-mail blocking.
They started by blocking e-mails from my e-mail account, which is hosted by HOSTPC.com (They are very careful about not allowing SPAMMERS); I received the same type of response from my delisting request and the ISP’s (LISCO) staff said they could not do anything and became quite rude when I told them that yes, they could stop using this service. After several requests from me, requests from the people at HOSTPC, and some nagging of the people at LISCO, I have my IP address unblocked.
Now my mother tells me that they are blocking her statements from Edward Jones. I checked her SPAM account and there is no indication that these messages are blocked. LISCO’s only solution is for her to disable all SPAM blocking.
Thanks for sharing, Pat. I guess the only other option would be to stop using any ISP that uses Linux Magic service…
Hi Scott,
I am not sure how it happened, but all of my ips have been unblocked by mipspace. I had called Pro VPS (owned by NDChost) and was told they would contact Mipspace. He sounded quite confident but I was not sure he would succeed, but he did. Anyway this makes life a lot easier around here!
What is your status regarding this Scott?
I have used the same host for 5 years now, and not come across this problem until i started a new server lease with them.
I have one client that happens to have several contacts hosted with a provider using the mipspace service.
Because of their non-logical attitude towards blocking, I may be losing a client that is hosting several large sites with a large email volume.
Spam protection has changed so much in the last 4 years. I do not need to subscribe to any black-list at all with the new methods emerging recently.
I want to pursue this, possibly with legal action, so any information that you or any others can offer would be appreciated.
Sorry, no change in status, in fact it’s gotten worse. To me, these guys are bad guys, and don’t give a rip about anyone that’s not paying them directly – i.e. the provider using mipspace – Take it up with your web host, and refer them here to read what’s going on, and perhaps send infop t othat provider too –
Please tell us… Who are they, this “provider? Perhaps people should avoid that provider? I would, since mipspace is immune to any recourse – If enough people shun providers using them, then they’ll dump Wizard / mipspace.
I will not be disclosing my provider. I do not wish to cost my provider customers due to the action and misrepresentation of a 3rd party company. The responsibility is to MIPSPACE alone.
My provider has been around for years and offers a good product. The # of servers I lease would take me months to move all services to a new provider and cost me a hefty profit. Something not economical to do considering the low number of recipients hosted by providers using their email filtering service.
I am, however, willing to take this to the legal system. I have done so before. Currently I have been able to sway several companies to alter the filtering of my IP using persuasion and letters from legal counsel. If I lose any income from this, I will take it to court.
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear – there’s no need to disclose YOUR provider, because they’re not the ones using mipspace and the matter is out of their hands if mispace is blocking them – You said you have “… a client that happens to have several contacts hosted with a provider using the mipspace service.” – so I was just suggesting that you disclose THAT provider that hosts those contacts here, and perhaps they’ll respond.
I’m not sure there’s anything legally that can be done, because THAT provider is the one choosing to use mipspace for their clients, whatever their shortcomings. This is just the (stupid) way that techno-wizard / mipspace works, and I’d think the better providers will eventually dump ’em with enough complaints.
I hope you ‘re successful – We”ve lost some income too from it, by losing a couple of hosting customers…
My confusion on your previous post, and my apologies.
The ISP is razzolink.com and is connected to MipSpace by, you guessed who, Linuxmagic.
I will write an email to Razzolink, and encourage them to contact linuxmagic to change their spam methods
A company that I’m working with just got on this crazy blacklist and can’t get off. And now we’re seeing a lot more e-mail bounces because of it.
We only send e-mail to those who have requested it, with the most common messages being receipts for a purchase or a newsletter from a double-opt-in mailing list. We can show the record of the user request and confirmation for any address they mail.
Now we have users complaining because they didn’t get their receipt or a message with the links to download e-books they purchased. And we have no way to contact them unless they give us an alternate means to reach them.
I did have some luck with one ISP by writing to their postmaster address and explaining the situation. (My message to their help address was bounced because of BMS.) They are still using the system but whitelisted our domain. So now I have a form letter that I’m sending to ISPs when I get a BMS bounce. It explains the situation and points here to your post.
By the way, here are two of the ISPs I’ve recently run into using this system: izoom.net and wtconnect.com. Steer clear.
Thanks for sharing that, Doug – You know the killer for me? The fact that they’re counting RECIEPTS against you! That’s really the bizarre line of logic that these idiots crossed, and what makes their “service” so unreasonably irritating.
I wonder if iZoom and WTConnect are even aware of what’s going on!
I keep running into more messages blocked by these systems. The latest are pioneercable.net and murray-ky.net. I do try to let the ISP know but most of the time my message is also blocked.
Funny that the ISPs using this system aren’t blocked themselves since most of them send commercial messages.
By the way, I did run across some new information (I think) on the BMS page. They give a list of the blacklists they provide with links to each. http://www.linuxmagic.com/products/bms
Thanks so much for that, Doug!
Doug says:
“I keep running into more messages blocked by these systems. The latest are pioneercable.net and murray-ky.net. I do try to let the ISP know but most of the time my message is also blocked.”
I walked into the office of one of those two ISP’s and complained. The admin ‘looked into it’ and told me there was nothing he could do. Typical municipal utility provider 🙁
Yep, there IS nothing the admin can do. Some pencil pusher decides to go with a company like Linux Magic without understanding how people will be negatively affected. Since it’s such a small minority, they just don’t care, but if that minority gets vocal enough, and more visible bloggers than I would tackle the issue, companies like Wizard Tower Technoservices would HAVE to clean up their act.
Mipspace ratings don’t just randomly get bad for no reason. If you’ve been listed negatively then it’s for a reason. If you don’t want to be seen as a spam company for your personal emails then use a separate IP for those you send out in bulk.
It’s like you got a bad credit rating for missed payments by your kid on a shared credit card and then complaining to a 3rd-party investor they won’t give you a loan. Not only is the rating not the investor’s making but you really shouldn’t have let your kid use the same card if you weren’t prepared to risk the consequences of a bad rating caused by him. I would ignore you too.
The fact you used a fake email address for your comment says it all.
My host finally found me an IP that was not on the mipspace list, but alas, it appeared on the list again in short order. Said host is moving me to a new server later this month … I plan to watch the IP like a hawk and “encourage” my (rather large) host to stay on top of any future removal requests.
I’d be curious of Matt’s (posting above) IP from which he posted. 😉
The people at Wizard Tower are indeed insane. Their Account Manager is a self-serving know it all, and Michael is diluted. They believe they have the answers to SPAM, however you are correct in persuming they won’t be around much longer. A company with narrow visions, and a poorly managed infrastructure is doomed to failure.
Good review. Mipspace is a joke.
After reading your troubles with MIPSpace, I didn’t even try to contact them, but I did do a small writeup about the whole sordid mess
http://my-instinct-was-wrong.com/2012/05/08/mipspace-linuxmagic-suck-nuff-said/
class action lawsuit anyone?
Now, MIPSPACE has done same to our server, I have Communicated with them several times, they always deny our request to remove from blacklists. I am not sure, maybe they are expecting the 500$ annually. They do never listen. I don’t know how should i proceed.
I’m sorry to hear that, and I wish I could offer some helpful advice, but I have none. The ISPs that subscribe to their service should dump them…
I again escaped mipspace’s list when my host moved me to a different server farm with squeaky clean IP’s. This week, I found that the entire block of 256 IP’s in which my domain resides is on the list.
Mipspace offered to talk to me if my host would add secondary info (my name and address) to the rwhois or via SWIP. The host refused, and mipspace says it cannot address the reputation issue without it. I’m putting heat on my host and a local ISP that is a customer of mipspace. Since mipspace is rather arrogant, I cannot classify my daily emails to them as “heat”, but they know I am not going away.
My host has seemingly failed to realize the extent of the damage to the reputation of 256 of its IP’s. It either does not desire to, or is afraid to approach Wizard Tower Technoservices. I’ll be finding a braver host in six weeks. Does webhostingtalk.com have high visibility such that a posting there could generate some interest in this band of thugs? Just a thought….
Thanks for posting, Kent, and that’s a good idea. I don’t know anyone at Webhosting Talk, but I might be able to locate someone who does. The thing is, until it happens to you, you don’t realize how bad the problem is.
Reminds me of something else…
Just came across this article, and I know it is old, but still very relevant. Your experience read exactly as mine has gone this past 4 weeks. They provide no evidence and no recourse. Don’t they realize that with standards as strict as theirs, they will eventually block the every email provider everywhere? It doesn’t make for a solid business model if you ask me.
Honestly, given the amount of trouble we’ve all had with them, I think a class-action lawsuit for damages could be in order. I know several of my customers are threatening to leave based on their actions.
Thanks Jason, and I agree (obviously). However, who would the class action be against? In order to win a lawsuit there have to be damages, but I think these guys are legally able to do whatever they want – it’s a service, and they can be as idiotic as they please. The actual “damages” are coming from the ISPs and web ghosts that USE Liunux Magic / Wizard Tower Technoservices. They’re the ones doing harm to their clients by using it, right?
Umm it seems to me that linux magic isn’t for everyone. Its an ultra strict anti-spam service for ISPs who don’t want any spam at all. Like say an office where verifying that every email is virus free and from a legitimate source is extraordinarily expensive.
It sounds like a system for interoffice and personal emails only. There are plenty of public email servers who don’t have any spam protection out there afterall.
As for linuxmagics rude responses to you. How many complaints from users do you think they get? They block emails in mass…
Why do they block such a wide range of ips indiscriminately? Because it’s part of their “lightning fast spam protection” that is advertized on their website.
When an email comes in most spam protection just compares the IP to a list of SPECIFIC IPs which are known to spam. At which point the spammer just moves to the next IP to spam with. Effective NO strict NO
With MagicMail if they catch you spamming, they block your whole IP range. Effective YES, Strict YES
Security intensive applications aren’t exactly new you know. I know people who won’t communicate with someone over email unless they encrypt it.
Ok I read up some more and its a little different than what I said. Magicmail has decided to blacklist any ISPs which have a reputation of producing spam and are non-compliant about doing something about it or making available lists of IPs that should be blacklisted. So in short the entire service provider gets blacklisted.
As for MIPSpace, its an email version of something the phone companies already offer. Phone companies let you say to them “no more advertising on my line, I opt out of all advertisements. That’s essentially what MIPSpace does. Email servers that use it opt out of any and all advertisements. That’s why Linuxmagic says “its a problem with your ISP not us” because quite literally there product does exactly what its supposed to be doing.
Are they being overly broad in their definitions of who gets blacklisted, yes. But I don’t see an alternative way of doing this as many of these spammers aren’t being dealt with by the people who are supposed to be dealing with them. Blame the ISP for ruining it for everyone and not fixing their spam problems themselves.
http://www.mipspace.org/
wanna get removed from their blacklist, it says very clearly on that website, if you want off the blacklist, give us the IP addresses that you use to send commercial mail from and we will take the other IPs off the list.
DarkD,
“As for MIPSpace, its an email version of something the phone companies already offer. Phone companies let you say to them no more advertising on my line, I opt out of all advertisements.”
That’s not really correct either in principal or in practice. MIPSpace is not the equivalent of a do not call list because A) federal do not call lists are an explicit choice by individuals, users are not automatically enrolled by service providers, and B) the do not call lists are not technically capable of blocking legitimate business communications. C) While phone number blocks are available at a customers request, it doesn’t block calls the customer wants to receive.
“Email servers that use it opt out of any and all advertisements. That’s why Linuxmagic says its a problem with your ISP not us because quite literally there product does exactly what its supposed to be doing.”
This ignores the fact that the error is faulty data in the blacklist itself and not an error at the ISP. Assuming you were right, and the blacklist was intended to block just advertisements/unsolicited email (like other antispam services), then there wouldn’t really be a controversy here.
This week we also got snagged by the MIPSpace blacklist and we’re unable to send emails to our own paying customers (those whose ISPS subscribe to the LinuxMagic & MIPSpace blacklists). We’re not sending advertising at all, we’re trying to communicate with customers about their business accounts. We do not send SPAM or unsolicited emails.
“Blame the ISP for ruining it for everyone and not fixing their spam problems themselves.”
Most ISPs outsource this to external antispam services precisely because they don’t have the expertise or resources to identify spam themselves. It’s the spam blacklisting services that do a poor job of keeping false positives and false negatives low simultaneously low.
I receive lots of spam and I hate it as much as anyone else. SPAMHaus and SpamCop work to keep false negatives low. MIPSpace seems to not care if their service blocks non-spam commercial traffic. Solving internet spam is a tough job, but in the case of MIPSpace it’s irresponsible to blacklist innocent IPs. The damage seems minimal now for the simple reason that their anti-spam service is not very popular, but the more damage they cause to legitimate (solicited) commercial mail, the more a class action lawsuit against them would be in order.
Apparently MIPSpace (and all its partners in abusive negligence) still exist, because the same thing just happened to me (and my upstream provider). They can’t even write proper english;
“MipSpace does occasionally review it’s rating”
it should be its, not it’s.
Yet they assume they know what’s best for their ‘customers’. I’d much rather call their users victims of ignorance.
For crying out loud, the mere fact alone that they use .com domain names is reason enough to list themselves for allowing bad marketing crap. I’m stunned that 7 years later they’re still in operation. Hope they all die from cancer.
Very interesting article! Thanks for taking time to document your experience.
We have been blacklisted *again* by BMS in July 2015. So, yes, it appears they are still operating in the same manner.
I sent the URL of this article to our customer with a suggestion he forward it to his ISP tech support.
Thanks for the comment, and yes, unfortunately they seem to be hanging on to their reign of tyranny ;( –
Not enough ISP’s have told them to “take a hike” yet, I’m guessing because the issue is obscure and affects such a small percentage of their customers…
I work for an e-commerce company and can verify that these people are still around and blocking people despite the fact that customers have given explicit consent or need to receive invoices or return waybills.
Yes, I’ve seen it lately too. Amazing that ISPs still use their service… There’s no excuse!
We are on their “Worst” list. I check every morning. I submitted a ticket with our hosting service and they contacted MIPSpace but we’re still on the list. When we get a bounce due to MIPSpace I tell the sender to call the customer and tell them that there’s nothing we can do. The customer needs to contact their email administrator or ISP. We also recommend that they don’t use MIPSpace as its not a legitimate service. If the customer wants to receive email from us, they will do what’s necessary. There’s nothing else we can do.
I also use MagicSpam on my server.
After reading this, i turned off all MIPSPACE filters. Every ISP using this, can configure it. When you turn these filters off, these problems don’t exist any more.
Yes, but if the ISP won’t cooperate and turn it off, then there’s nothing you can do.